A long post
Be forewarned, this is gonna be long. And, it's about faith. I will in no way be offended by anyone who skips it.
Since I've been an adult (the last ten years or so, really), I haven't been one to shy away from discussing faith, theology and/or religion. So, when I say that I've struggled a bit introducing it to this blog, it hasn't been for the typical reason.
It's like this: while faith is hugely important in my life, pivotal really, there is probably nothing I'm more ambivalent about. I often find myself envious of those for whom faith is an uncomplicated thing, whether they believe or not.
I guess I'm just a typical postmodern. Or, maybe, I'm a prophet - scary thought, that. It seems they typically experienced things the way I do.
Anyway, I was handed a book by a friend at church today and, upon reading the first page, I knew I had what I needed to broach the topic. So, I quote:
'Perhaps my single greatest disappointment in most of the world's religions is that they succeeded, against all odds, in making most people afraid of God! Do you realize how absurd and horrible that is? It pretty much makes it an unsafe and scary universe at the core, where no one is at home and everyone is paranoid. It makes the mystical adventure impossible. It turns religion into a self-serving brokerage business, always picking up the pieces after a kind of "taught and learned helplessness." The result has been massive neuroses, nonstop aggression and a phenomenon unique to the West: atheism.
...
Anyone who has any authentic inner experience knows that God is only beauty, mercy and total embrace, and nothing but beauty, mercy and total embrace. The trinitarian nature of God makes that theologically certain. The only people who don't know that are those who have never sought God's face. In my experience there is an almost complete correllation between the degree of emphasis one puts on obligations, moralities, ritual performance and one's lack of any real inner experience. Once you know for yourself, you will be plenty "moral", in fact, even more so, but it all proceeds from a free response, from the Trinitarian flow passing though you. It is a response, not a requirement, an effect of having known love, not a precondition for getting love. God is always the initiator, always good, always available, and the flow is always free.'
Quoted from 'From Wild Man to Wise Man' by Richard Rohr and Joseph Martos.
I find this to be an excellent summary of the positive side of my ambivalence. I would love it if this post prompted a broad range of comments.
posted by Stu @ 11:20 AM
10 comments
10 Comments:
i dont know how many people are gonna have the balls to get involved in this type of conversation but i know alot about fearing the Lord, being brought up in a catholic family and attending catholic schools for the majorty of my life.
Luke 12:4-5 "To you my friends I say: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. I will tell you whom to fear; fear him who, after he has killed, has the power to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Ps 25:12-14 If there is any man who fears the Lord, he shall be shown the path that he should choose; he shall enjoy lasting prosperity, and his children after him shall inherit the land. The Lord confides his purposes to those who fear him, and his covenant is theirs to know.
Ps 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding...
The fear of the Lord may be the beginning of wisdom, but the end is love. Love is our hope, our goal, our sure destiny as believers. If we are obedient, we will get close to it while still in this world. In the meantime, we fear now, because none of us is yet without sin or perfect in love.
anyone who believes in an afterlife, as in a heaven or hell, needs to fear God, knowing that he alone judges you and decides where you will go on the day you die. Fear in the bible i think often means respect, like of gods laws and what not..
i know the faith, but i say i dont believe, im not really sure where i stand as far as faith, i think i just say theres no heaven and hell just to make my life easier, because i know that if i were judged by God today i wouldnt do very well. so just by denouncing faith and accecpting atheism, people can get rid of that fear of the lord and that standard every christian should live up, therefore making themselves feel better about being bad or immoral. at least thats what iv done
Thanks for responding, matt the great. This is exactly the sort of thing i'm hoping for. i hope others will join in.
you do know a lot about fearing the Lord. my hope for you is that your experience of it has not caused you to be unable to come to know a lot about grace.
because, while fear might be 'the faith', grace is the gospel and the message of Jesus was the gospel.
the passage in the book speaks of inner experience. to the extent that i've tasted that inner experience, it has been in learning to receive and live a life of grace.
i've found that only grace can bring about real and lasting change.
i will warn you, though, receiving and living grace is hard. ironically, it's much harder than the path of fear.
'If there is any man who fears the Lord, he shall be shown the path that he should choose...'
matt, i think you are a doubter because you have come to know the limits of fearing God. you know that being motivated by 'the law' just doesn't cut it. there is a path you should choose. i believe you doubt because you're holding out for that path.
i'm not saying that it is wrong to fear God. rather, i'm saying that fear is not enough.
i recommend you check out 1 John 4:16-18 (that's the first letter of John, not the gospel of John).
ask me questions. express disagreement. tell me i'm full of crap, if you wish. nothing is off limits.
by the way, a lot of those closest to me are catholic - my brother and sister, Tam, ML, the mishlers. this isn't about catholic vs. protestant.
i need to get ready for work. please keep commenting.
im not saying anything bad about protestants, cuz that would be very christian of me hehe. but im just saying I only know the catholic views.
I know that fear of the Lord is limited as far as obtaining grace and happiness, and iv never been one to do things because of fear, i find im too stubborn, or i have too much pride. But fear of the Lord along with the other gifts of The Holy Spirit, Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety,the fruits of the Holy Spirt Charity, Joy, Peace, Patience, Benignity, Goodness, Longanimity, Mildness, Faith, Modesty, Continence, Chastity as well as participation in sacraments will bring us grace, therefore bringing us closer to God and closer to ultimate happiness(in theory) its pretty funny how i know these things, i think if i ever decide to practice what i preach ill be pretty well off. i know that protestants dont believe in confession( at least in the sense that catholics do)but where do protestants stand as far as the gifts and fruits of the holy spirit?
Matt,
Have you, in your education, been taught about sanctifying grace and actual grace? These are Roman Catholic terms. Protestants don't really talk about actual grace and most would not accept the notion of it. For protestants, grace is something God bestowes on us through no deserving on our part. It is not something we 'get' (like the food we eat), but something we have (like the air we breath). We can't earn it or do anything to increase the amount of it. It is free.
The same applies to God's love. We can't earn it or do anything to increase it towards us. It's not that we will have fear cast out of us when our love is perfect, but that God's perfect love casts out our fear.
You know how I love my kids. If they were to screw up somehow, you know I would do my (imperfect) best to love them unconditionally. I do this because I try to model my life after what I know of God in some feeble way. So, if and when one of my kids get in trouble, they know there may be consequences to their behavior, but that they do not need to fear loss or disruption of my love for them.
That's how it is with God towards us, except infinitely magnified. If we really knew that to be the case experientially, do you think we would have trouble loving God back?
By the way, the author of the quote (Richard Rohr) is a Franciscan priest.
It's late and I need to sleep. But I also have a lot more I could say. I like these kinds of conversations.
On a totally different subject - we have your sweatshirt. I'll leave it on one of the rocking chairs in the sun room, in case you are around and want to pick it up.
About gifts and fruits. Protestants might have somewhat different lists, especially when it comes to gifts which they would consider to be things like prophesy, speaking in tongues, working miracles, etc.
But, basically, there isn't much difference. At least not in ways that matter pragmatically.
Great post Uncle Stu, I wish I had more time right now to reply to a lot of things that Matt said, especially being a Catholic myself.
I do agree that too much fear of the Lord is a sad and dangerous thing. I agree that it's not enough, but I also believe that some fear IS due to God. It just shouldn't be more than love. That sounds confused....
Also, I find it very sad that people tend to focus on the differences between catholics and protestants. Shouldn't we rejoice in how much we have in common?!?
On another note, missing you guys tons. I found Beth on facebook a while ago, and am thoroughly enjoying her college experience vicariously... :)
Thanks for posting a link to my blog, you can find all the related Mishler blogs therein.
ENG 380 beckons...Novel to Film, it's a class MADE for me.
hey, lindsay the joyful! thanks for jumping in.
yeah, a response of fear is not uncalled for, but it needs to be in it's proper place. just like an earthly father and child relationship (but more so).
but, i think that, if christianity has anything to say, it is that real change - the kind we all collectively and individually hunger for - will not come about motivated by anything short of the experience of pure and unadulterated unconditional love (which is really the only kind there is).
you are right again about catholic vs protestant. legalism is found throughout the Church. a while back i was in a Bible study where a protestant lady was bragging about her daughter wearing a shirt to school that had 'you can't stop, drop, and roll in hell' on it. what went thru my mind was 'WHAT BS!'. what went through my mouth was a more measured (though still rather confrontational) response that, in my opinion, that was not a christian 'witness'.
lindsay, i (and we) miss you and your family very much. we so wish you guys would visit us and that we would have more time to spend with you all when we return. i was hoping to somehow get a book to your older sister this weekend, but i couldn't even arrange that. too short a time. i guess i'll mail it to her.
Wow, way to deep for my "tiny mind" to borrow a phrase from Papa Hignatoni.
Reading your post did remind me of a joke :) Yup. Sort of.
An old man and an old woman were sitting in the front bench seat of a pick up driving down the road. The lady turns to her husband of many years and says, "How come we don't sit right next to each other and snuggle when we're driving anymore?" Hubby says,"I haven't moved."
That always reminds me of our relationship with God - he's driving. We can either sit right there next to him, all snuggly like, (OK maybe not QUITE like that) or we can get as far away as possible and sit safely buckled up on OUR side of the truck.
A belly rub to Reeses and hugs to everyone else :)
So true, a truly deep conversion can't be based on fear. Good job sticking up for ecumenism and witnessing. People sometimes get so worked up about their religion being the one and only, kind of like a football team or something (although UofM is having a terrific season...).
Sorry we missed you this weekend :( You call at the beginning of our crazy wedding day, it was long but fun. Sorry we couldn't get the book from you. Thanks for being such a support to her!
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